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Entries: 166493    Updated: 2013-03-26 20:56:18 UTC (Tue)    Owner: Richard Ervin Davis

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  • ID: I130993
  • Name: Gerberga De Gatinais
  • Given Name: Gerberga
  • Surname: De Gatinais
  • Prefix: Countess
  • Suffix: Of Maine 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26
  • Sex: F
  • Birth: Abt 917 in Gâtinais, Loiret, Orleans, France 27 3 5 10 7 28 9 14 11 16 13 18 15 20 17 22 19 24 21 23 25
  • Note:
    Sources for this Information:
    date: abt 915 [Ref: Settipani Anjou p265], parents: [Ref: Settipani Anjou p265], father: [Ref: ES XIV #116]
    Sources with Inaccurate Information:
    father: Herve Count of Maine [Ref: ES III.1 #116] Theobald de Tours [Ref: Paget HRHCharles p139]
  • Death: Abt 952 in Chateau D'angers, Maine-Et-Loire, Anjou, France 29 27 3 5 12 7 9 11 13 15 17 19 21 23 25
  • Note:
    Sources for this Information:
    date: before 952 [Ref: Moriarty Plantagenet p4, Settipani Anjou p265] vor 952 [Ref: ES III.1 #116, ES XIV #116]
    30
  • Event: Alt. Death Abt 952
  • Note: Château d'Angers, Maine-et-Loire, Anjou, France 14 16 18 20 22 24
  • Event: Alt. Death 953 10
  • Event: Alt. Death Abt 958 6
  • Event: Alt. Death 952 28
  • Event: Alt. Death 952
  • Note: Chateau d'Angers, Maine-et-Loire, Anjou, France
  • Event: Alt. Birth Alt. Birth Abt 910
  • Event: Alt. Death Alt. Death Aft 952 4
  • _UID: 9BC077F6D3794F02BD1A48B2DC95607F8665
  • Change Date: 9 Mar 2013 at 09:05
  • Note:
    She was dau. of Geoffrey I, Ct of Gatinais

    This would presumably (by Bachrach's reckoning, _Fulk Nerra_, charts 2 & 4) make her the sister-in-law of the _great-granddaughter_ of her husband Fulk 'le Bon'. Viz.: Hermengarde-Blanche d'Anjou, (via Hermengarde-Blanche's m. to Geoffrey II, comte du Gatinais). Are you ok about that? (I haven't checked this further for chronol. -- or other kinds of -- coherence, and I haven't studied Bachrach's argument on Gerberga's ancestry.)

    Ava, a sister of Wm. the Pious, m. 'Geoffroi, c of Nevers/Gatinais'. Their daughter, Gerberge, was first wife of Fulk II, 'le bon' (d. 958), count of Anjou, and mother of his children, from 2 of whom can be traced a large progeny. Unusual hypothesis--contradicts conventional wisdom on first wife of Fulk le Bon, and I can't find any other information on this Geoffrey (not in Bouchard's _Sword, Mitre & Cloister_). This was put forward in C. Lauranson-Rosaz, _L'Auvergne et ses marges du VIIIe au XIe siecle: la fin du monde antique?_ (Le Puy, 1987), in charts at pp. 60, 93, as a possibility but with no discussion in the text. What is the origin of and best argument for this idea? [Ref: Nat Taylor 23 May 1997]

    ES xiv, 116 shows Gerberga, d. 952, who m. 937 Foulques II "le Bon," Count of Anjou, as daughter of Geoffroy, Count of Gatinais (son of Aubray, Viscount of Orleans). It does not mention any wife of Geoffroy.

    When I inquired about the parentage of Gerberga on 26 Oct 1996, contrasting ES xiv, 116, with what was postulated by Bachrach, "ic" (Oxford) commented that ES was right and called attention to a review of Bachrach in the "English Historical Review", June 1996, pp. 668-9. The review was by K. S. B. Keats-Rohan. It promised a forthcoming study of the counts of Gatinais. I haven't followed up to see if it has yet been published. Where does the information on Ava, sister of William "the Pious," come from? [Ref: Alan B. Wilson 25 May 1997]

    (Response): C. Lauranson-Rosaz, _L'Auvergne et ses marges du VIIIe au XIe siecle: la fin du monde antique?_ (Le Puy, 1987), in charts at pp. 60, 93, puts it forward as a possibility, but with no discussion in his text… [Ref: Nat Taylor 26 May 1997

    Gerberge has been much discussed, but clearly Christian Settipani is correct in arguing that her father was Geoffrey of Gatinais. [Ref: TAF 4 Dec 1998]

    Regards,
    Curt

    ------------------------------------
    HER 2ND HUSBAND

    [jweber.ged]

    Turton has Gerberge as "d' Arles", daughter (with a ?) of Rotbold II Comte d'Arles, while AR has Gerberga (de Gatinais?). Neither source seems sure. Others say Gerberga du Maine, de Vienne, or de Tours. @check ancestry

    ------------------------

    The following post to soc.genealogy.medieval on 1 Jun 1998 by Ken Finton indicates that the only agreement seems to be to her first name (Professor Bachrach, a historian, proposed the existence of Gerberga, daughter of Ratburnus of Vienne, who married Fulk II, on purely political/historical grounds, even though there was no other indication that Ratburnus had a daughter named Gerberga.):

    This is directed at Professor Bachrach:

    There seems to be a lot of disagreement as to the father of Gerberga, wife of Fulk II. It has been called to my attention that you favor her identification as:

    Gerberga of Vienne, d/o Ratburnus. ["Prosopographical Method", _Medieval Prosopography 7_ , no. 2 (1986), 1-23. In his "Fulk Nerra" Bachrach says firmly that she is Gerberga of Vienne, da. of the "mere" (as he puts it, as part of his argument on the political import of the marriage) viscount of Vienne, Viscount Ratburnus I (p. 7 - and see his geneal of this house, chart 14)."]

    ES III:116 says this Fulk m. (1) Gerberga, dau. of Herve, Ct of Maine and (2) the widow of Alain, Duke of Brittany. Turton (chart 6) has her as Gerberga d'Arles, da. of Rotbold II, comte d'Arles. Also, Her father may have been Theobald de Tours.), source Royalty for Commoners, by Roderick W. Stuart, p. 125.

    If she is of Vienne, how can this be backed up? To complicate matters, I see that Christian Thevenot, "Foulque III Nerra, Comte d'Anjou" (1987) endorses Gerberga as Gerberge du Maine, da. of Hervé, Sgr du Maine, as the ES Chart shows.

    Kenneth Harper Finton
    Editor/ Publisher
    THE PLANTAGENET CONNECTION

    -----------------------------

    I have adopted the ancestry for Gerberga, presented on soc.genealogy.medieval by Alan B. Wilson, based on work by Settipani, which is still speculative.

    -----------------------------

    The following was given in a post-em by Curt Hofemann, curt_hofemann@yahoo.com:

    ID: I00388 Gerberga de Gatinais

    born: 915 [Ref: Keats-Rohan Family Trees (Settipani Anjou) p211-267]

    married: 937 [Ref: Bachrach-Angevin p274, Bachrach-Fulk Nera p262, ES II:187, ES III:166, ES VIV:116, p24, Genealogiques Capetiens 8, Glocker p299, Keats-Rohan Family Trees (Settipani Anjou) p211-267, Michael Call 401:24, Moriarty Plantagenet p4, Royalty for commoners 167:36, Turton p6, Weis AR7 53:21 & 118:20, Winkhaus 'Anjou' 21], names: [Ref: Moriarty p4, Paget p139, Watney #9, Weis AR7 118:20]

    died: before 952 [Ref: ES III:116, ES XIV:116, Keats-Rohan Family Trees (Settipani Anjou) p211-267, Moriarty Plantagenet p4]

    Some of the sources of the debate about her ancestry are below:

    Gergerba de France, dau. of Hugues, le Grand, duc de France and Hedwige de Germanie as wife of Foulques II and mother of Geoffroy Grisegonelle. [Ref: "Les seize quartiers genealogiques des Capetiens", J.D. de Joannis & R. de Saint-Jouan, Lyon: Sauvegarde Historique, 1958]

    Gerberge "d' Arles", dau(?) of Rotbold II Comte d'Arles [Ref: Turton p6]

    father: Herve Count of Maine [Ref: ES III:116, Royalty for Commoners 167:36] note: RFC contradicts itself=see below.

    father: Geoffrey Count of Gâtinais [Ref: ES XIV:116] Note: does not specify that it is a correction of ES III:116=see above.

    Gerberga of the Gatinais(?) [Ref: Weis AR7 118:20]

    Gerberga de Gâtinais dau of Gausfred de Gâtinais [Ref: Olivier Auffray 28 Jul 2000 msg to SGM]

    Gerberge du Maine, dau of Hervé, Seigneur du Maine [Ref: "Foulque III Nerra, Comte d'Anjou", Christian Thevenot, 1987]

    parents: Hervé, Comte de Maine (no further ancestry); mother: Godehilde de Maine dau of Roricon III, Comte de Maine & Godehilde (no further ancestry) [Ref: Genealogics citing: Paget, Saillot at: http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00020238&tree=LEO] Note: I show Paget says something else=see below.

    father:Theobald de Tours [Ref: Paget p139, Royalty for Commoners p125]

    father: Geoffrey I, Vicomte of Orleans. Witness Charter of Hugh Magnus, Duke of France 939, 933-942, and sister of Aubrey, Vicomte of Orleans, whose son was Geoffrey, Count of Gatinais, whose son was Aubrey, Count of Gatinais, whose son was Geoffrey, Count of Gatinais, who married Beatrice of Macon. [Ref: McBride2: Vol I File 9: The Paternal Ancestry of Homer Beers James]

    Below is a 31 May 1998 exchange on SGM between <Mardi Carter> & Christopher Nash:
    <ES XIV:116 gives the accepted view that he m Gerberga, dau. of Geoffrey of Gatinais.>
    You might want to look at Bernard S Bachrach's extensive "Some Observations on the Origins of Countess Gerberga of the Angevins: An Essay in the Application of the Tellenbach-Werner Prosopographical Method", _Medieval Prosopography 7_ , no. 2 (1986), 1-23. In his _Fulk Nerra_ Bachrach says firmly that she is Gerberga of Vienne, da. of the "mere" (as he puts it, as part of his argument on the political import of the marriage) viscount of Vienne, Viscount Ratburnus I (p. 7 - and see his geneal of this house, chart 14).

    <she was dau. of Geoffrey I, Ct of Gatinais>
    This would presumably (by Bachrach's reckoning, _Fulk Nerra_, charts 2 & 4) make her the sister-in-law of the _great-granddaughter_ of her husband Fulk 'le Bon'. Viz.: Hermengarde-Blanche d'Anjou, (via Hermengarde-Blanche's m. to Geoffrey II, comte du Gatinais). Are you ok about that? (I haven't checked this further for chronol. -- or other kinds of -- coherence, and I haven't studied Bachrach's argument on Gerberga's ancestry.)

    Ava, a sister of Wm. the Pious, m. 'Geoffroi, c of Nevers/Gatinais'. Their daughter, Gerberge, was first wife of Fulk II, 'le bon' (d. 958), count of Anjou, and mother of his children, from 2 of whom can be traced a large progeny. Unusual hypothesis--contradicts conventional wisdom on first wife of Fulk le Bon, and I can't find any other information on this Geoffrey (not in Bouchard's _Sword, Mitre & Cloister_). This was put forward in C. Lauranson-Rosaz, _L'Auvergne et ses marges du VIIIe au XIe siecle: la fin du monde antique?_ (Le Puy, 1987), in charts at pp. 60, 93, as a possibility but with no discussion in the text. What is the origin of and best argument for this idea? [Ref: Nat Taylor 23 May 1997]

    ES xiv, 116 shows Gerberga, d. 952, who m. 937 Foulques II "le Bon," Count of Anjou, as daughter of Geoffroy, Count of Gatinais (son of Aubray, Viscount of Orleans). It does not mention any wife of Geoffroy.

    When I inquired about the parentage of Gerberga on 26 Oct 1996, contrasting ES xiv, 116, with what was postulated by Bachrach, "ic" (Oxford) commented that ES was right and called attention to a review of Bachrach in the "English Historical Review", June 1996, pp. 668-9. The review was by K. S. B. Keats-Rohan. It promised a forthcoming study of the counts of Gatinais. I haven't followed up to see if it has yet been published. Where does the information on Ava, sister of William "the Pious," come from? [Ref: Alan B. Wilson 25 May 1997]

    (Response): C. Lauranson-Rosaz, _L'Auvergne et ses marges du VIIIe au XIe siecle: la fin du monde antique?_ (Le Puy, 1987), in charts at pp. 60, 93, puts it forward as a possibility, but with no discussion in his text… [Ref: Nat Taylor 26 May 1997

    Gerberge has been much discussed, but clearly Christian Settipani is correct in arguing that her father was Geoffrey of Gatinais. [Ref: TAF 4 Dec 1998]

    Regards,
    Curt
    ARLES, Gerberga [18024] Bef 925 - ____ BIRTH: Bef 925 DEATH: Y Mother: FRANKEN, Bertha

    Family 1 : +ANJOU, Adelheid +ANJOU, Gottfried Grisgonell

    http://genealogy.munthe.net/database/g0004147.html#I15543

    ---------------------
    Countess of Maine

    Incertain : des chercheurs contemporains dont Bernard Bachrach ("Fulk Nerra the Neo-Roman Consul" 1993 e t "State-building in medieval France " 1995) et Christian S ettipani ("Les Comtes d'Anjou et leurs alliances aux Xèm e et XIème siècles" 1997) ont montré une autre ascendance p our Gerberge : elle s'appellerait Gerberge de GATINAIS e t serait fille de Geoffroi de Gâtinais et de Ava de Arverne (voirces noms).

    Sources: RC 127, 167, 298, 333, 347; A. Roots 118; Kraentzl er 1152, 1156, 1157, 1161, 1197; and Pfafman. One AF reco rd calls her Gerberga of Arles. Born about 904, of Arles, F rance. Pfafman says she was Gerberga of Gatinais. Roots say s Gerberga of the Gatinais.
    RC: Gerberge of the Gatinais and of Maine.
    Roots: Gerberga (of the Gatinais?).




    Father: Geoffrey De Gatinais b: Abt 875 in Orleans, Loiret, Orleanais/Centre, France
    Mother: Ava D'auvergne b: Abt 890 in Auvergne, France

    Marriage 1 Fulk (Foulques) D'anjou b: Abt 909 in Château d'Angers, Maine-et-Loire, Anjou, France
    • Married: 2 Mar 937 in 1st Wife 31 8 5 10 32
    • Note:
      Sources for this Information:
      date: [Ref: ES III.1 #116], names: [Ref: Settipani Anjou p265], child: [Ref: ES III.1 #116, Moriarty Plantagenet p4, Paget HRHCharles p139, Settipani Anjou p247, Watney WALLOP #9, Weis AR7 #118]
      Sources with Inaccurate Information:
      child: Adele (#19751) wife of Walter Count of Amiens Valois and Vexin [Ref: Settipani Anjou p225]
    • Event: Alt. Marriage 937
    • Change Date: 5 Mar 2013
    Children
    1. Has Children Geoffrey I Grisgonelle D'anjou b: 11 Nov 938 in Anjou/Pays-DE-La-Loire, France c: in France - Aka Geoffroi Of Gatinais
    2. Has No Children Guy Bishop Of Puy
    3. Has No Children Drogo Bishop Of Puy
    4. Has No Children Guy De Anjou b: Abt 932 in Anjou, France
    5. Has Children Bouchard I De Vendome b: Abt 939 in Anjou/Pays-DE-La-Loire, France
    6. Has No Children Humbert
    7. Has Children Agnes D'anjou b: Abt 940 in Pays-DE-La-Loire, France
    8. Has No Children Foulques Seigneur De Briole b: Abt 941 in Anjou/Pays-DE-La-Loire, France
    9. Has No Children Aelips D'anjou b: Abt 936 in Anjou, France
    10. Has Children Arsinde D'anjou b: Abt 948 in Chateau D'angers, Maine-Et-Loire, Anjou, France
    11. Has Children Adelaide (Blanche\Adele) D' Anjou b: Abt 942 in Anjou/Pays-DE-La-Loire, France
    12. Has No Children Blanca Or Adelaide De Anjou b: 948

    Sources:
    1. Abbrev: Colonial and Revolutionary Lineages of America: Vol. 23. (Dupont Family)
      Title: Colonial and Revolutionary Lineages of America: Vol. 23. (Dupont Family)
      Author: Unknown
      Publication: New York, American Historical Co., 1965
      Note:
      ABBR Colonial and Revolutionary Lineages of America: Vol. 23. (Dupont Family)
      ABBR Colonial & Revolutionary LineagesREFN 19DATE 20 FEB 1999

      Source Media Type: Book
    2. Abbrev: Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists, 7th Edition, by Frederick Lewis Weis, additions by Walter Lee Shippard Jr., 1999
      Title: Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists, 7th Edition, by Frederick Lewis Weis, additions by Walter Lee Shippard Jr., 1999
      Page: 118-20
      Quality: 3
      Text: Gerberga (of the Gatinais?)
    3. Abbrev: garynlewis1144.ged
      Title: garynlewis1144.ged
      Note:
      garynlewis1144.ged, Source Medium: Other
      .
    4. Abbrev: Royalty for Commoners
      Title: Royalty for Commoners
      Author: Stuart, Roderick W.
      Publication: Genealogical Publishing Co.
      Note:
      ABBR Royalty for Commoners
      NS386753

      Source Media Type: Book
    5. Abbrev: jweber.ged
      Title: jweber.ged
      Repository:
        Name: Not Given

      Text: Date of Import: 10 Jan 2005
    6. Abbrev: brucedjohnson.ged
      Title: brucedjohnson.ged
      Note:
      brucedjohnson.ged, Source Medium: Other
      .
    7. Abbrev: jweber.ged
      Title: jweber.ged
      Repository:
        Name: Not Given

      Text: Date of Import: 11 Jan 2005
    8. Abbrev: GEDCOM File : 2526021.ged
      Title: GEDCOM File : 2526021.ged
      Author: Gerald Duquette
      Note:
      Gerald Duquette, GEDCOM File : 2526021.ged, ABBR GEDCOM File : 2526021.ged
      72 Barrett Street
      Northampton MA 01060.
      Text: 4 MAY 2003
    9. Abbrev: jweber.ged
      Title: jweber.ged
      Repository:
        Name: Not Given

      Text: Date of Import: 12 Jan 2005
    10. Abbrev: willi.ged
      Title: willi.ged
      Note:
      willi.ged, Source Medium: Other
      .
    11. Abbrev: jweber.ged
      Title: jweber.ged
      Repository:
        Name: Not Given

      Text: Date of Import: 13 Jan 2005
    12. Abbrev: G1209.ftw
      Title: G1209.ftw
      Note:
      G1209.ftw, Source Medium: Other
      .
    13. Abbrev: jweber.ged
      Title: jweber.ged
      Repository:
        Name: Not Given

      Text: Date of Import: 14 Jan 2005
    14. Abbrev: Emma of Brittany.ged
      Title: Emma of Brittany.ged
      Note:
      Emma of Brittany.ged, Source Medium: Other
      .
      Text: Date of Import: 12 Feb 2005
    15. Abbrev: jweber.ged
      Title: jweber.ged
      Repository:
        Name: Not Given

      Text: Date of Import: 17 Jan 2005
    16. Abbrev: The Magnificent.ged
      Title: The Magnificent.ged
      Note:
      The Magnificent.ged, Source Medium: Other
      .
      Text: Date of Import: 12 Feb 2005
    17. Abbrev: jweber.ged
      Title: jweber.ged
      Repository:
        Name: Not Given

      Text: Date of Import: 19 Jan 2005
    18. Abbrev: Countess of Arles.ged
      Title: Countess of Arles.ged
      Note:
      Countess of Arles.ged, Source Medium: Other
      .
      Text: Date of Import: 13 Feb 2005
    19. Abbrev: jweber.ged
      Title: jweber.ged
      Repository:
        Name: Not Given

      Text: Date of Import: 24 Jan 2005
    20. Abbrev: Foulques II.ged
      Title: Foulques II.ged
      Note:
      Foulques II.ged, Source Medium: Other
      .
      Text: Date of Import: 13 Feb 2005
    21. Abbrev: jweber.ged
      Title: jweber.ged
      Repository:
        Name: Not Given

      Text: Date of Import: 26 Jan 2005
    22. Abbrev: Guillaume III Taillefer.ged
      Title: Guillaume III Taillefer.ged
      Note:
      Guillaume III Taillefer.ged, Source Medium: Other
      .
      Text: Date of Import: 22 Feb 2005
    23. Abbrev: jweber.ged
      Title: jweber.ged
      Repository:
        Name: Not Given

      Text: Date of Import: 29 Jan 2005
    24. Abbrev: Rotbaud II.ged
      Title: Rotbaud II.ged
      Note:
      Rotbaud II.ged, Rotbaud II.ged, Source Medium: Other
      .
      Text: Date of Import: 13 Feb 2005
    25. Abbrev: jweber.ged
      Title: jweber.ged
      Repository:
        Name: Not Given

      Text: Date of Import: 22 Feb 2005
    26. Abbrev: Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists, 7th Edition, by Frederick Lewis Weis, additions by Walter Lee Shippard Jr., 1999
      Title: Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists, 7th Edition, by Frederick Lewis Weis, additions by Walter Lee Shippard Jr., 1999
      Note:
      Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists, 7th Edition, by Frederick Lewis Weis, additions by Walter Lee Shippard Jr., 1999.
      Page: 118-20
      Quality: 3
      Text: Gerberga (of the Gatinais?)
    27. Abbrev: Newsgroup: soc.genealogy.medieval, at groups - google.com
      Title: Newsgroup: soc.genealogy.medieval, at groups - google.com
      Page: Alan B Wilson, 12 Jun 1998
      Quality: 3
    28. Abbrev: Newsgroup: soc.genealogy.medieval, at groups - google.com
      Title: Newsgroup: soc.genealogy.medieval, at groups - google.com
      Note:
      Newsgroup: soc.genealogy.medieval, at groups - google.com.
      Page: Alan B Wilson, 12 Jun 1998
      Quality: 3
    29. Abbrev: The Plantagenet ancestry of King Edward III and Queen Philippa
      Title: The Plantagenet ancestry of King Edward III and Queen Philippa
      Author: Moriarty, G. Andrews
      Publication: Mormon Pioneer Genealogy Society, Salt Lake City, Utah, 1985
      Note:
      ABBR Moriarty (1985)
      RIN#4009
    30. Abbrev: Joseph H. Kare Jr.
      Title: Joseph H. Kare Jr.
      Note: Joekare@hotmail.com
    31. Abbrev: Newsgroup: soc.genealogy.medieval, at groups - google.com
      Title: Newsgroup: soc.genealogy.medieval, at groups - google.com
      Page: Alan B Wilson, 12 Jun 1998
      Text: 937
    32. Abbrev: Newsgroup: soc.genealogy.medieval, at groups - google.com
      Title: Newsgroup: soc.genealogy.medieval, at groups - google.com
      Note:
      Newsgroup: soc.genealogy.medieval, at groups - google.com.
      Page: Alan B Wilson, 12 Jun 1998
      Text: 937
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